Hiring Is the Last Step: Nancy Martinez on Scaling Talent at Relativity Space

Show notes

In this episode of the Leaders in Talent podcast, host Adriaan Kolff interviews Nancy Martinez, former Head of Talent at Relativity Space and now Head of Talent at Machina Labs. Nancy spent 17 years in talent acquisition, starting at Google as a technical sourcer and scaling Facebook and Twitter when both were under 500 people, before moving into hardware. She joined Relativity Space at 600 people, eight months before its first rocket launched, and left when the company was 2,100.

When Eric Schmidt invested and became CEO, the Terran R timeline accelerated and the team had to hire roughly 1,000 people in nine months. Nancy's first instinct was to ask how to hire faster, and she came to believe those were the wrong questions. The conversation covers what she asked instead, why she tells people hiring is the last step, how she got a CFO, COO and CTO personally closing candidates, what surprised her moving from software to hardware, how she protected a team from burnout during extreme intensity, and why she builds talent roadmaps rather than hiring plans.

Timecodes

01:11 Welcome and Nancy's background

02:13 17 years in TA: Google, Facebook, Twitter, Honey

02:51 What Relativity Space is building

03:24 Joining at 600 people, eight months before Terran 1

04:13 Engineering products are an organizational challenge

05:02 Eric Schmidt arrives and the timeline accelerates

06:34 From 600 to 2,100: hiring 1,000 people in nine months

08:18 The wrong questions, and the ones she asked instead

10:52 If everything is a priority, nothing is a priority

12:41 Why hiring people is the last step

15:19 Educating leaders who only knew the SpaceX way

16:34 What surprised her moving from software to hardware

19:13 Competing for talent without winning on compensation

20:24 Getting the CFO, COO and CTO closing candidates

22:10 Urgency without burning the team out

24:52 How she handles the pressure herself

25:50 Joining Machina Labs

27:16 What she would do differently from day one

28:56 The hiring engine: tech, employer brand, data, recruiting ops

30:33 The three buckets of data she watches

31:44 Talent roadmaps instead of hiring plans

32:51 Where to find Nancy

___________________________

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Connect with Nancy Martinez: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nancymartinez/

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Transcription

[00:01:11] Adriaan: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of the Leaders in Talent podcast. My name is Adriaan Kolff, and I'm the host of the Leaders in Talent podcast. Today I'm joined by Nancy Martinez. Nancy, welcome.

[00:01:46] Nancy: Hi, very excited to be here with you today. Thanks for the invite.

[00:01:50] Adriaan: Great. Nancy, previously I would always try to read the bio of my guests, but I've learned over time there's no one better than the actual person to share it. So tell us a little bit more about your journey, and what you were doing in your last role as head of TA at Relativity Space. Can you give a little bit of context about your career, and especially what you did in that last role?

[00:02:13] Nancy: Yeah, absolutely. So I've been in talent acquisition for about 17 years. I started my career at Google as a technical sourcer, and I moved through a lot of different companies in Silicon Valley, like Facebook and Twitter, when they were at pretty early stages, under 500 people, and helped scale those organizations. I'm from Los Angeles and always wanted to move back to LA because I like the weather here. So eventually I made my way back down to Los Angeles, where I worked for Honey, which was a startup down here that was acquired by PayPal, and then made the leap over to Relativity Space, where I spent the past three and a half years working as their head of talent. Relativity Space is a company focused on building rockets, and they have a really bold mission, which is to fundamentally rethink the way rockets are designed and built using advanced manufacturing like large-scale 3D printing, robotics and automation. The goal is to simplify the way rockets are produced and increase the speed at which we can produce them, which is becoming a very big industry with communications and defense and a lot of other things that are happening.

[00:03:24] Nancy: So when I joined the company back in 2022, they were about 600 people, so already a little bit larger size. And I joined about eight months before they were launching their first rocket, Terran 1, which was an incredible time to join. It was very exciting and, honestly, watching Terran 1 launch is still one of the highlights of my career. Not just because the rocket left the launch pad, but really what that moment represented. It was a culmination of years of hard work across hundreds of people, dozens of disciplines, from manufacturing to propulsion, software, supply chain, every function contributing to this one mission. And for a few moments, you can see thousands of invisible decisions, late nights, technical breakthroughs and setbacks, all coming together.

[00:04:13] Nancy: And it really highlighted something to me, which is that building extraordinary engineering products is not just an engineering challenge, it's an organizational challenge as well. That really got me excited and super passionate about the manufacturing and hardware space, which I never saw myself in. I was a software girl. As I mentioned, when I joined they were building Terran 1. Shortly after that rocket launched, they moved over to building Terran R, which was a much larger vehicle, fully reusable, very different engineering problems, even though it's still essentially the same thing: building a rocket. The goal is still the same, to simplify and build quickly. But the product changed significantly, and so our talent strategy changed significantly.

[00:05:02] Nancy: It was the first of many changes at Relativity. A couple of years later, we had an investment by Eric Schmidt. He also joined the company as CEO, and that triggered an acceleration of both the company's ambition and the timeline. So the timeline for Terran R got moved up significantly, and that presented an interesting challenge on the talent side, because we were not simply building the next rocket a lot faster. We now needed to build the organization capable of building it, and we needed to do it at the same time. So it's literally that metaphor of flying the rocket and building it at the same time. We're building the organization.

[00:05:49] Nancy: Lots of fun sayings in aerospace, like when people say it's rocket science. At Relativity, it is rocket science. It was very exciting times, a lot of change, a lot of great things that happened. And I think one of the biggest realizations from that experience is that talent can't sit on the sidelines waiting for hiring requests. We really need to understand where the business is going and help the organization build. And nowhere is that more clear than in a company that's doing manufacturing, because there are milestones, there are timelines, there are things that need to happen in a certain order, and talent is a big part of that.

[00:06:34] Adriaan: So cool. Just in terms of numbers: you were 600 people when you joined. When you left, how big was the company?

[00:06:41] Nancy: When I left, we were about 2,100. And for a large part of the time that I was there, it was a bit of a slower growth pace. And then, as I mentioned, when Eric came, it really accelerated things. He wanted to build this rocket and launch it in 2026, and so we had to hire about 1,000 people in nine months, which is something we'd never done before. It was a little bit intimidating, but also a very exciting and rewarding time in my career.

[00:07:13] Adriaan: Take us back to that moment. Eric Schmidt comes in, you're head of TA, things are going well, this was your first real head of TA role, right?

[00:07:22] Nancy: Yes.

[00:07:23] Adriaan: Take us to that moment. Eric Schmidt comes in and says, "Okay, let's go. We need to hire 1,000 people." What changed for you? How did you deal with that pressure, and how did you deal with it from a team perspective? There are so many aspects to this. And to your point, especially building a physical product like a rocket, there are so many elements where if you don't have the right people, the launch date is simply not feasible. How did you do that, and how did you work with the business and your leaders to make sure these deadlines were met?

[00:08:00] Nancy: Like you said, the stakes are incredibly high, not just in terms of the timelines, but what we're doing. Building rockets, building reusable rockets, is one of the most complex things that humans build. And there are a lot of ways in which it can go wrong. It could be dangerous if things aren't done the right way. So as a talent leader, my first instinct was: how do we hire faster? How many recruiters do we need to add? How many sourcers? Are we doing more interviews? But I quickly came to the realization that those were the wrong questions to ask, and that we really needed to step back and ask bigger questions.

[00:08:35] Nancy: The challenge wasn't really growing the team or sourcing more candidates, even though anyone that's grown a recruiting team can tell you that is a challenge. The real challenge was helping the organization make good hiring decisions quicker, and really understanding what the things were that were slowing us down. Because even though we did go out and hire more recruiters and hire an RPO, all of that takes time, and we didn't have a lot of that time. So it was taking a step back and really understanding: what are the real bottlenecks in our hiring process right now? What are the things that slow us down? Can our leaders absorb this pace of hiring? That was a big question we had to wrap our brains around. Do we have enough interviewer capacity? Are interviewers trained and calibrated? Do leaders have the data to operationalize their hiring plans?

[00:09:29] Nancy: And a big one that I always kept coming back to was: what are the roles that are actually going to move the business forward the fastest? And really prioritizing ruthlessly on those roles. So it became more about building the hiring systems that could help the business scale up. One of the ways we did that is through meticulously capturing and reporting on data, making sure we had up-to-the-minute information on what was going well, what wasn't, and where we were falling behind. It was about capacity planning for the TA team: recruiters hiring engineers, how many engineers should they be hiring and at what pace, versus people hiring on the manufacturing side. We had about a 50/50 split, about 500 engineers and 500 people give or take on the manufacturing side. Those are two very different types of people that we're hiring, and very different processes. So how do we segment that and make sure everyone's running a process that is effective for who they're trying to hire? And making sure that when we looked at the process as a whole, we were leveraging that data and the experience we had, and removing unnecessary steps and bottlenecks while maintaining the hiring bar, the quality of the hires, because as we talked about a couple of minutes ago, that's incredibly important.

[00:10:52] Nancy: And I think the most difficult piece for me and for the rest of the executive team was the prioritization, because everything's a priority. And I would say if everything's a priority, nothing's a priority. So it was really getting cohesion amongst the leadership team of: wait, what is the priority? And really being selfless in a way of "Hey, we're all working towards this mission. We're all trying to accomplish this thing. Let's, as an executive team, as a leadership team, help each other out and make sure that we are doing the right thing for the business," not "I need my person first."

[00:11:25] Adriaan: Super interesting. So if I can sum up: a crazy time window to more than double the company in a very short period. On the one hand, capacity was an issue, so you hire your own team and work with an RPO for that flexible add-on, but that was only part of the solution. The big part was to look at your existing process and ask where you can be more efficient, because that's where you get the shortest and quickest gains. And then on top of that, add the capacity piece. Plus, let's really do a good job of prioritizing given the capacity constraints we have. Is that correct, how you solved it?

[00:12:09] Nancy: Yes. Yes.

[00:12:10] Adriaan: When you articulate it now, this sounds very logical, but when you're in it, do you feel this just happens because you're thinking on your feet, you're solution-oriented, and everyone is in it? Or was this something you worked out with your CPO, for example, or with your leadership teams: "Okay, how are we going to solve this piece of the puzzle?" How did you come to these three solutions?

[00:12:41] Nancy: In the back of my head, it's always been that I think of talent from a strategy perspective and from a capabilities perspective. That's a perspective I bring, and if I were to look at my career and the things I've done, the operationalization of things is really where I'm strong. But the challenge for me and for a lot of leaders is seeing this, because the instinct is just: let's go do the thing. I would say hiring people is the last step. And people are like, "What? Why are you saying that?" It's just because you really need to have your infrastructure, you need to have your systems in place, and then you need to hire.

[00:13:30] Nancy: And it was difficult even for me. Like you mentioned, you have Eric Schmidt, you have this new CEO, and you just want to go and dive in and start doing the thing. So it's hard to restrain yourself and pull yourself back and say, "Wait, stop. We need to do these other things, and this will make us more effective." It was hard for me to do that for myself. And then it was also a challenge to convince the other leaders and hiring managers that this was going to be worth it in the end, that it was better to slow down a little bit, fix some of the things we had in our process, and make sure we're building dashboards and doing all the right things that would actually help us go faster. So it really took a lot of convincing, a lot of talking to various people. I went from partnering a lot with our CPO and the HR team to product meetings, to milestone meetings, to meeting with finance. So it was a change in the way I had to operate as well.

[00:14:35] Adriaan: And is that something you realize over time, in the thick of it? Because what's interesting, in my experience working as an RPO for companies like yours, is that it's very often just heads down, just go, keep pounding the pavement, and then eventually these hires should come. And you either need to be a very strong influencer and come with authority, and/or you need to have a business that really understands recruitment because they've been through this before and understand we need to build the foundation and the engine before we can actually go anywhere. Was it a combination of the two that you think made it successful in such a short time period?

[00:15:19] Nancy: I think that as a company, we had some leaders that were experienced, that had seen this before. A lot of our leadership came from SpaceX, which is a completely different way of hiring. They have a different brand. They have a CEO that's very prominent. So a lot of it was education for the leaders and the executive team on recruitment and how to operationalize that in a company that's not SpaceX. Because for a lot of people, that had been their only experience. Some of our folks had joined as new grads, as interns, and had their whole career there, and then came to Relativity and wanted to do things the SpaceX way. And I'm a big believer that there's not one single playbook for how to do things.

[00:16:10] Nancy: As we talked about earlier, I've worked at Google, at Facebook, at Twitter, all these companies, and a lot of times the reaction I get when I go to a new organization is, "Well, how did they do it at XYZ?" And I tell them, "I will tell you how they did it, but I am not going to do that same thing here, because we're a different company, different maturity, different operating model, and we need to figure out what's going to work for us." So there was a lot of that education that I had to do.

[00:16:34] Adriaan: So you, coming from Facebook, Google and Twitter into all of a sudden the hardware space: what were some of the things that surprised you the most working in TA at a hardware company like Relativity Space?

[00:16:48] Nancy: There are a lot of differences in terms of just the business and how you do hiring. From a business perspective, if you are hiring at Facebook or Twitter and there's a delay in hiring certain engineers or a certain team, more or less, the business will keep going. With hardware, and if you're building something as complex as a rocket, you are a major bottleneck. TA is a major bottleneck for the success of the business. So that was a big change. The way you recruit both hardware engineers and manufacturing talent is different. And I don't think I fully appreciated that until I was there at Relativity, because from my perspective, coming from these companies, I've hired for some of the most exciting, difficult-to-hire-for engineering companies in the world.

[00:17:42] Nancy: And so I thought I could understand how difficult it was going to be at Relativity, but I underestimated the difficulty, because hiring hardware engineers is very different. Even hiring manufacturing talent is very different, and sometimes people think it's easier because it's blue collar, hourly workers, but there's really a big shortage of that talent in the United States right now. With defense and new space and this industry really growing and booming, there's a lot of competition for that talent. So that was something else that I had to wrap my head around. There are certain best practices that are always best practice that you bring: provide a great candidate experience, be a strategic partner to your hiring managers, things like this that are applicable across all industries. But everything else, I had to learn how to do very differently. And I was also fortunate that a lot of the people on my TA team had worked at aerospace companies before, had worked in the industry, and I learned from them a lot as well.

[00:18:44] Adriaan: So in terms of competing against companies like SpaceX for the same level of talent: I guess SpaceX is not recruiting in the LA zone as much, but there are a lot of manufacturing and aerospace companies competing for the same talent in the LA area. What do you do to stand out or attract when you can't always compete on salary and compensation, for example?

[00:19:13] Nancy: In the early days, that was very much a thing, especially when I first joined Relativity. We were a lot smaller company. We weren't competing on compensation, and I think that's when you really lean into your company and your story, what makes you unique, and really not only find a good way to tell that to candidates, but to show it to them when they're going through the process. For Relativity, the exciting things we had going for us at that time were that we were a lot smaller company. You were going to have a big impact. You were going to have access to leadership. When we started building Terran R, we built that from clean sheet design, so it wasn't like you're going to come in and iterate on someone else's design.

[00:20:00] Adriaan: This is it.

[00:20:01] Nancy: Truly a very unique opportunity, especially for people that love rockets and love building rockets. There weren't a lot of other people doing that, and so that was a big selling point. And I also leveraged our executive team a lot. I was very fortunate in that way, that they really understood they had a big part to play in closing candidates and in providing that experience. A funny story: one time our CFO came to me and said, "Nancy, I haven't gotten any messages from your recruiters about closing candidates. What's going on?" So he was very much, "I am going to be a part of this process," our COO and our CTO as well. My recruiters would approach them directly and say, "Hey, I have this candidate. Can you send a message?" Right away: text, call. That helped us a lot. When you are in an industry that's very competitive and you're all competing for the same pool, the executive team, the leadership team, has to be involved. They have to be a big part of that process.

[00:21:02] Adriaan: That makes a ton of sense, and thank God you had a supportive leadership team. For you in that environment with your team: do you use the pressure that you got from the business to create a culture where your team is operating with a sense of urgency? I guess the beauty of building a rocket is that everyone knows what the launch date is, so people understand what we're doing. I remember I was obsessed with the first rockets from SpaceX going up and just watching these videos, and I can only imagine what the energy must have felt like, to your point, when you saw that rocket go up in space. This is us, and the camaraderie that everyone will have felt, like it's all worth it. How do you keep that sense of urgency in your team on a daily basis? And probably two questions there: how do you not burn them out, because that's something that can easily happen, and what were the moments where you were pushing back against the business, where you really had to put a stick in the ground and say, "Hey, this is just not realistic"?

[00:22:10] Nancy: In terms of sense of urgency, and I've done this with all teams that I've led, from the point that I start I really try to get them to see that we are not here to fill roles. We are here to build a business. Engineers are building the product. Finance is creating financial forecasts. Product managers are building product roadmaps. We are building the teams, the capabilities that the business needs to be successful. And when people start thinking about hiring and recruiting in that sense, instead of "Oh, I need to go hire another engineer," it creates a sense of urgency internally. So I really pushed that message across the team from day one.

[00:22:50] Nancy: And then the other thing I did was just try to keep them as informed as possible on what was going on, what the business decisions we were making were, and how those impacted them and the success of the company. So I was very transparent, as much as I could be. Some of the people, when I was leaving Relativity, said, "We always appreciated that we would come and ask you a question, and sometimes you would say, 'I can't tell you,' but everything else I will tell you." So I was very honest when I couldn't tell them something. I would say, "I can't tell you that right now." But we developed that trust, that they knew I would be as open and transparent with them as I possibly could, and keep them up to date on why we were doing things. Not just "go hire 10 engineers," but why these engineers were critical for the company, why they were critical for the business.

[00:23:48] Nancy: On the side of burnout, that was a real challenge, and I'm not going to sugarcoat it. I think everyone at the company experienced burnout at some point. I would try to focus on the periods of intensity and then periods where the intensity is dialed down a little bit. What can we do in those moments to really focus on development, on side projects, on things that the team wants to do? Understanding that there are going to be ebbs and flows, and that there are going to be periods of extreme intensity where I'm going to have a certain expectation of you on the team, but I'm not going to expect that when we don't need that level of intensity. The other thing I really tried to do is just remove a lot of the noise. When a company's growing, when things are changing, there's a lot of noise coming. And sometimes that can be draining to the team, because you're focusing on all these other things instead of what you're good at doing and what you're passionate about doing. So as much as I could, I tried to keep the noise away and keep them focused on what they needed to do and how to do that well.

[00:24:52] Adriaan: How do you deal with this pressure cooker, the stress and excitement and hardships?

[00:24:58] Nancy: For myself, a lot of things outside of work. I love to go hiking. I have a dog, and we go hiking on the weekends. I leave my phone in the car and we completely disconnect. But I think I also just try to keep an eye on the big goal, the main goal, and remind myself of that daily: what we're doing and why we're doing it. And again, for myself, try to push away some of that noise. A lot of the companies that I pick, that I go work for, are companies where I really believe in the mission. I really believe in what they're doing. I'm super passionate about it, and that makes it easier when you have a rough day, when things aren't going well, to stop and think about why you're there and the incredible thing that the company is building as a whole. I think that makes it a little bit better.

[00:25:50] Adriaan: So good. Hey, exciting news. You're going to join a new hardware company. Do you want to share what the name of the company is, and what excites you about the opportunity?

[00:26:04] Nancy: Yeah, so I'm going to be joining a company called Machina Labs, which is a company here in Los Angeles focused on advanced manufacturing using robotics and AI software, and I'm very excited to be joining them. There is a big push in the United States to reindustrialize America and really build that capacity, and I don't think there's another company doing it in the way that Machina is doing it, so I'm very excited to join them. They're a lot smaller company, so under 300, a smaller team. And for me, I'm a builder. I love to come into companies and just build and grow the company, so I'm excited to come back to a smaller organization, earlier stage, and help build them up again.

[00:26:47] Adriaan: So exciting. Coming into that role now with the experience of Relativity Space, I don't know if you need to hire 1,000 people within 12 months...

[00:26:59] Nancy: I hope not. Not yet anyway.

[00:27:02] Adriaan: Yeah, exactly. But knowing you, there's definitely hiring that needs to be made, there's growth on the horizon. What are some of the things that you would now do, or do differently, based on your previous experience, and how would you approach this?

[00:27:16] Nancy: I think there are a couple of things. One is getting connected to the business right away. At Relativity, while I got there eventually, I think it's something to do really early on: really understand, again from a capabilities standpoint, where is the company trying to go? What are the capabilities that we need to achieve that? Not the roles, but the capabilities. What is the timing, and how are we going to do that? Are we going to buy, build or borrow those capabilities for the organization? And really try to understand that well. And the other thing, which we didn't talk about a lot but I really believe in, is building a good hiring infrastructure. That's something that a lot of times is under-invested in, and it's really what helps you go fast when you need to go fast.

[00:28:08] Nancy: If your hiring system is broken, if you don't have the right tech stack, the right data, interviewer training, structured interviews, if you don't have any of that, it's going to be difficult to hire very quickly and maintain a quality of hire. Those are the things that you need to invest in from day one. Employer brand I'll add in there as well. So really focusing on making investment in those areas, so that when Machina does tell me I have to hire 1,000 people, we will be a little bit more ready for that.

[00:28:37] Adriaan: Tell me, because it's interesting that you say we didn't talk about it much. This has clearly been part of the success at Relativity Space, that hiring operations piece. Anything you'd like to share about how that was approached, and especially going forward, how you look at hiring ops now? Can you make that a little bit more concrete?

[00:28:56] Nancy: Yeah. So on infrastructure, I think about building this hiring engine, and there are a couple of different components to that. One is having the right technology for your TA team and optimizing it. That was something that at Relativity, I will say, took us a very long time. We had to optimize our ATS to the point that we needed, to make it frictionless. So having the right technology, optimizing that, building your employer brand and making sure that's evolving with the organization. Having the right data. I'm a big data person. I love data. I love showing it to people. I think it's really effective when working with leadership. So being able to have that data, to report on it, to have it real time, is really critical. And the last side of that is just having, not necessarily a team, but at least a person whose role it is to make sure that all this is aligned. A lot of times, as we've talked about, when hiring cranks up or when we're building or scaling a TA team, it's like, let's hire recruiters, let's hire sourcers. I'm a big believer in: let's hire a recruiting operations person and let's start to get all of this into place.

[00:30:10] Adriaan: What are some of the key data metrics that you focused on? Because one thing with data is that everyone understands it's important, but I often see organizations measuring certain things and I think, "Why are you measuring that? Is it just for the sake of it, because it eventually got added on somewhere?" Versus: what are the two or three true indicators of whether we're on track? What are those for you?

[00:30:33] Nancy: For me, I like to look at funnel data and look at that very closely, to see where our problems or challenges are in hiring. A lot of times a hiring manager will come and say, "Oh, there's not enough candidates." And then I go look at their funnel, and actually we're getting a lot of candidates in the door, but I see that the offer acceptance rate is not great. So is it that we don't have the right candidates, or that we're not closing those candidates properly? I look at funnel data very closely in terms of the pass-through rates and also time in stage by funnel. Offer acceptance rate obviously is an important one, but I also like to look at attrition data. I like to look at performance data if that's available, because it's one thing to bring in candidates and hire them very quickly, but are they staying? Because that comes back to be a TA problem at some point. So I really look at that as well. And at Relativity Space, timing. Timing was essential. How long was it taking us to hire a person? How long was it taking us to get them in the door and effective? So those were the three buckets of data that I looked at.

[00:31:44] Adriaan: So good. What is one lesson that you learned recruiting in such a competitive and hard space as hardware, that people not in aerospace can apply to their own hiring strategy?

[00:31:59] Nancy: I think thinking of talent as building talent roadmaps instead of hiring plans. To me the difference is: a hiring plan is how many engineers do we need next quarter? Whereas building a talent roadmap is going back to that idea of capabilities. What capabilities do we need, at the leadership level, at the middle level, at the entry level? And really building out what that's going to be a few years out, just as finance builds a financial forecast a few years out. I think that's huge, because that lets you understand how you're going to grow the company, not just how you're going to hire the people that you need to hire next quarter.

[00:32:40] Adriaan: So good. Nancy, this was such a joy. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. I learned a lot. This was great. What's the best way for people to connect with you? I assume over LinkedIn.

[00:32:51] Nancy: Yes, LinkedIn is great. I'm always on there. My LinkedIn profile is linkedin.com/in/nancymartinez.

[00:33:00] Adriaan: Great. Nancy, thank you so much and good luck in your new role.

[00:33:04] Nancy: Thank you. Bye.